Curse

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

I was just playing with Ether Renewal for a bit, thinking of all the support builds that could be done that would be better with infinite energy and mega self-heal...

Apart from the Prot bond/infuse, which I normally use, I turned to E/N.

Orders is good, you can maintain all the orders constantly and have no worries with sacrifice or energy; but then I had another thought...

A minion master with infinite energy? Spamming botm on recharge in battle, using fiends and horrors, though only 8 maximum... I don't know how well that would work.

Some feedback would be nice; this is what I built in the moment's thought:

1.Great Dwarf Weapon
2.Animate Bone Fiends
3.Animate Bone Horrors
4. Ebon standard of honour
5.Blood of the master
6. Dark Fury
7.Ether Renewal
8. Aura of restoration.

15 ES, 6 blood, 12 Death.

Chthon · Nov 15, 2009, 05:02 PM // 17:02

I like ER Orders. The only thing stopping me from running it often is the ability to put SoH on a N/Mo Orders.

I don't much care for the ER MM though.
1. Minions are level 14 as opposed to level 20* on a Necro primary.
2. 8 minions instead of 11* on a Necro primary.
3. No OoU cuts your damage output by about half.

(* I assume 16 Death magic plus Masochism on any serious Necro primary MM.)

While we're on the topic of E/N ER gimmicks, consider Jaundiced Gaze+Dark Pact spam. Yes, it's crappy single-target damage, but it's higher DPS than that other crappy single-target damage gimmick everyone's crazy over. (Cough cough Discord cough.)

Blood Ritual is generally frowned on in this age of "learn to manage your own damned energy," but it might be worthwhile now that it's actual cost is reduced to a skillslot + cast time.

I'm also curious to see what could be done with Blood Bond. Presuming ER can handle -10 health degen as easily as it manages -10 energy degen, you could keep the whole team on super mending. Not sure how much super mending is worth though...

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I like ER Orders. The only thing stopping me from running it often is the ability to put SoH on a N/Mo Orders.

I don't much care for the ER MM though.
1. Minions are level 14 as opposed to level 20* on a Necro primary.
2. 8 minions instead of 11* on a Necro primary.
3. No OoU cuts your damage output by about half.

(* I assume 16 Death magic plus Masochism on any serious Necro primary MM.).

Yeah, this is why it's gimmicky. But people like Rt/N MMs so I figured someone might enjoy it's advantaged and ignore the huge downsides. I won't run it myself, but I'm waiting for a time where we have 3 ERs in the team so I can try the Orders out myself properly.

I didn't bother too much with other blood/curses side of things... I'll have a look now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

While we're on the topic of E/N ER gimmicks, consider Jaundiced Gaze+Dark Pact spam. Yes, it's crappy single-target damage, but it's higher DPS than that other crappy single-target damage gimmick everyone's crazy over. (Cough cough Discord cough.)

You might have created the new Discord alternative

Let's see if anyone catches on.

Edit: In, about the year, of playing as an ER prot spammer, I've not encountered one PuG ele who can ER... We found one yesterday however =)

Gift3d · Nov 15, 2009, 05:48 PM // 17:48

do you people understand why discord works

cause as SOON as a target has a hex/condi on them all the necros use discord, you use your pve skills, and they die in a second. literally disappear, fall off the face of the earth.

at least try to understand how something works before you go trying to replace it with some crappy.... crap.

not to mention having an exposable secondary to provide utility and defense. rly? rly.

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

By all means carry on using your über discord builds, no matter how tatty, slow and support-lacking they are. I'd prefer looking forward to newer and faster ways (and more fun) to playing PvE generally. You don't think with discord, and if I had done anything with Discord I wouldn't have felt like i'd achieved anything.

As an E/N spamming blood spells, you are healing yourself constantly with ER, and you won't be full of them, you will also have E/Mo prot spammers and probably an MB with some Party-enchants and hex/condition removal.

I can see this working better than discord in tough areas, as discord was so vulnerable and sucky support.

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

Quote:

Yes, it's crappy single-target damage, but it's higher DPS than that other crappy single-target damage gimmick everyone's crazy over. (Cough cough Discord cough.)

Bad argument is bad. I can't believe you're still pushing this, cthon lol. Get over it. Discord is light years better than jaundiced gaze spam/pact spam.

Quote:

By all means carry on using your über discord builds, no matter how tatty, slow and support-lacking they are. I'd prefer looking forward to newer and faster ways (and more fun) to playing PvE generally

Discordway + AP caller is not slow, by any measure. And it's certainly not going to be beat by ANY ER build for the large majority of areas, much less the one posted here.

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Discordway + AP caller is not slow, by any measure. And it's certainly not going to be beat by ANY ER build for the large majority of areas, much less the one posted here.

Actually, ER prot with GDW + 5~ physicals> Discord damage/support. Though I can't be bothered explaining why. It does take skill, however; and I don't think the discord fans have it.

AtomicMew · Nov 15, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Actually, ER prot with GDW + 5~ physicals> Discord damage/support. Though I can't be bothered explaining why. It does take skill, however; and I don't think the discord fans have it.

Actually it's not, because you have enough room to take physicals in addition to discorders and GDW on an AP caller, which is way better than ER. If you can't figure out why AP > ER, you're real bad at this game, which you are.

Gift3d · Nov 15, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

By all means carry on using your über discord builds, no matter how tatty, slow and support-lacking they are.

from this i have determined you know not one, single, damned thing about what you're talking about and really didn't find the need to read the rest.

if you're gonna talk shit, do your research first. so incredibly ignorant.

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

from this i have determined you know not one, single, damned thing about what you're talking about and really didn't find the need to read the rest.

if you're gonna talk shit, do your research first. so incredibly ignorant.

On the contrary, Gift3d, I had previously been using Discord for almost a year, and when attempting HM dungeons and certain vanquishes, it failed hard; even modifying them to adapt to the area minutely helped.

What is the hardest thing you have done with Discord?

subarucar · Nov 15, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Actually, ER prot with GDW + 5~ physicals> Discord damage/support. Though I can't be bothered explaining why. It does take skill, however; and I don't think the discord fans have it.

Discord is a H&H build, don't compare it to human builds, If you plan on running H&H physicals, then Discord>Them.

HigherMinion · Nov 15, 2009, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by subarucar

Discord is a H&H build, don't compare it to human builds, If you plan on running H&H physicals, then Discord>Them.

I tend not to play H/H anywhere these days; it's just not fun, and destroys the idea of a "MMO". I was not talking about H/H, don't assume.

Kitor · Nov 15, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

On the contrary, Gift3d, I had previously been using Discord for almost a year, and when attempting HM dungeons and certain vanquishes, it failed hard; even modifying them to adapt to the area minutely helped.

What is the hardest thing you have done with Discord?

Why do people ALWAYS assume if something doesn't work for them, it's terrible, and they're not.

So, I h/h'ed Frostmaw's HM in ~40-60 minutes recently. Is this fail? y/n?

How about vanquishing eotn. some of factions (did most of it with Sabway) NF, and several other dungeons in eotn?

Also, lol @ the part about Discord not having any support earlier. And wut. Killing a foe in 1-2 seconds and a mob in 10-15 tops is slow?

EDIT: Also, DoA. Gloom was like 15 minutes, City 35, Some of us had to leave though, so it kinda just fell apart at Veil. It didn't fail, we just didn't really want to continue with half a party.

subarucar · Nov 15, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I tend not to play H/H anywhere these days; it's just not fun, and destroys the idea of a "MMO". I was not talking about H/H, don't assume.

Well then don't compare a build run by humans to a build run by AI.

Chthon · Nov 15, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

I have no desire to turn this into yet another discordway-versus-the-world thread. Discordway sucks. Get over it. If you want to defend it, take that to another thread. Now, let's talk about ER gimmicks as this thread was intended.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

[P]eople like Rt/N MMs

People are dumb. (See pro-discordway posts.) Rt/N MM's weren't good,* and the E/N ones won't be either. The extra 4 -- now 6 with Maso -- levels of Death Magic simply can't be compensated for.

(*Well, they were useful during the awful couple of weeks when Soul Reaping was nerfed to one trigger per 5 sec making all necromancers totally unusable.)

I think you'll have the most luck looking for skills that are powerful but unaffordable in terms of energy or health sac -- so that's going to be the blood line primarily.

Sir Tieger · Nov 16, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Yes...Discord is baed..

so i musta imagined doin all of Slavers, Frostmaw, Vloxen in HM with Discord h/h on my Warrior and without cons.

inorite Discord sux!

ElnoreVarda · Nov 16, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Orders ER work, but it cant field the monk utility a N/ can. Most ER builds that are efficient are E/Mo. Like maintaining prot bond on the party, spamming infuse and ps/sb, upkeeping life attunment and vital blessing etc etc. If you look around youll find plenty of non-monk skills that seems to work well with ER, the catch is that in 99 cases out of 100 a monk gimmick will be better.

The reason to why people run Dway is because its reliable (and because people are tards and copy/paste builds from PvX and other tards). You have one skill for all the damage, and 7 for anything you want. Handy indeed. D also happens to be in the same attribute as minions, which helps the Dway platform greatly.
I would say its the caller build that does the killing, not the necros. Even if the platform works regardless of the players profession, the caller build in itself is a good build.

To me the problem is that people rather play with their heroes than pugs. Now everyone says that pugs sucks but thats a lie. I think people dont have the patience/skill to form humans groups and thats the problem. Another issue is that a majority of all skills are bad, even if you manages to make a well synthesizing build, it will probably be bad because theres a better skill around (like WY and SY -- why ever run WY, or shields up?). This is really OT, so back to the topic (that also is off-topic).

The Dway platform is good. Most Dway builds are bad because most people are retards. ER is insane, nothing can beat it. I suggest nerfing it so you can maintain bonds (set-10 deg) or remove the ability to spam infuse (remove health gain). PUGing is important for the game. People farming money to pay for runs is horrible; make PUGing an option even for retards/wannabes/"MAI HEROES R 1337, U SUCK!"/etc.

minion; Dway is not "slow" in the big picture.

traversc: N-o-t-h-i-n-g (Not monks on crack, not bonders, not rit spirits, not N/rt - N-O-T-H-I-N-G) competes with ERs when it comes to support. AP for damage, yes sure.

Everyone: PUG more. You are rich already, you won the game. PUG, spread your wisdom, do whatever but DO NOT play with your facking friend and fill up with 6 heroes. Please

Xenomortis · Nov 16, 2009, 07:39 PM // 19:39

I refuse to comment on Discord.

The actual builds in the OP:
Well as a MM it's inferior to a Necromancer. The upshot is GDW, but a necro could run that too.
DF doesn't sell me. It's nice, but I've not really noticed much benefit when I've run adren builds with it. But heroes are crap with Dark Fury for some reason, so that may be why.

AtomicMew · Nov 16, 2009, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

traversc: N-o-t-h-i-n-g (Not monks on crack, not bonders, not rit spirits, not N/rt - N-O-T-H-I-N-G) competes with ERs when it comes to support. AP for damage, yes sure.

Okay, now let's stop talking in abstract terms like "support." If AP lets me complete an area faster than an ER build, then AP is strictly better. (At least for that area). Therefore, AP will be strictly better for a large majority of areas.

Furthermore, the build the OP posted wouldn't even have more "support" than a N/A MM, so even if you did define "support" clearly, ER still loses.

Quote:

Everyone: PUG more. You are rich already, you won the game. PUG, spread your wisdom, do whatever but DO NOT play with your facking friend and fill up with 6 heroes. Please

nty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cthon

I have no desire to turn this into yet another discordway-versus-the-world thread. Discordway sucks. Get over it.

Wrong.

Quote:

If you want to defend it, take that to another thread. Now, let's talk about ER gimmicks as this thread was intended.

Okay. Discuss AP vs ER.

Jeydra · Nov 17, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Okay, now let's stop talking in abstract terms like "support." If AP lets me complete an area faster than an ER build, then AP is strictly better. (At least for that area). Therefore, AP will be strictly better for a large majority of areas.

Furthermore, the build the OP posted wouldn't even have more "support" than a N/A MM, so even if you did define "support" clearly, ER still loses.

Can you clear the large majority of areas with 8 Elementalists using AP? Didn't think so. Obviously if you're going out with H/H or something then you're better off playing an offensive character for the simple reason that you have PvE skills while nobody else does, which makes you the best damage-dealer in the team. But then, what makes you think this is a H/H build? ER is an awesome skill just like AP, but you use it where it's suited. Obviously you don't go AP when your team needs a healer.

... sheesh.

I really should make a new thread on Discordway someday.

Can't really comment on the build without having tried it myself (and having pretty much no experience with MMs), although I'd say you might as well run Animate Bone Fiend as your only animate spell - you should have the energy to use it, and it cools down in 5s. You could run Glyph of Swiftness with it if that's still not enough and use it on ER as well. I'm also skeptical about Dark Fury, although as E/N I'm not sure what else to use (Mindbender perhaps?).